Transcript
Sam Pond
You know, we have a mission. We have a calling. We have a vocation. We have a profession. And it’s really David and Goliath. It’s a fight. I love to fight. I think I was born to fight. So, it’s just great that we’re able to do this for folks. It actually gives us energy to do it. We’re very blessed to represent injured workers.
Katie Frey
Welcome to Law Meets Life, presented by Pond Lehocky, where conversations go beyond the courtroom and into the people, experiences, and moments that define who we are. I’m your host, Katie Frey, and today’s guest is one of the founding partners of Pond Lehocky, Sam Pond. Sam, thank you so much for being here today.
Sam Pond
Thanks for having me.
Katie Frey
Absolutely. Over the course of your career, you’ve represented thousands of injured workers. You’ve spent decades fighting systems that aren’t built for these people; they’re built to oppress the powerless. After all of these years, what keeps you motivated to do this work?
Sam Pond
First of all, it’s my duty to the profession and to the clients—to make sure they are represented adequately. They and their families are really the motivation.
As Jerry Lehocky, my partner, says, we really don’t work. We have a mission. We have a calling. We have a vocation. We have a profession. And it’s really David and Goliath. It’s a fight. I love to fight. I think I was born to fight. So, it’s just great that we’re able to do this for folks. It actually gives us energy to do it. We’re very blessed to represent injured workers.
Katie Frey
I love that, and I love that David and Goliath reference. We’ll get into a little bit of your background in fighting later. But something else I want to talk about is that first job. My first job was working at Chocolate World in Hershey, which is very different.
Sam Pond
Wow. I wish I had that as my first job. I love chocolate.
Katie Frey
It was a lot of, “Watch your step,” for people getting on the tour ride, and, “Here, just one—only take one sample.” So, it was very different from pipeline labor at the Tastykake factory.
I really believe early jobs teach you a lot about people and work ethic. Looking back at the blue-collar jobs you’ve worked in the past, what have you learned from them that still shows up in your life today?
Sam Pond
Clearly, work ethic. I worked on a pipeline as a union laborer when I had just turned 17. But I had a job washing dishes on Mother’s Day at the Mayfair Diner. I had a number of paper routes. John Morgan always says that if you had a paper route, it’s a special thing.
I picked trash out in the neighborhood and brought it down to recycle. That was actually when I first found out about supply and demand. I was collecting papers out of the trash in my wagon and brought them down to State Road in Northeast Philly. I got, I don’t know, a dollar and 18 cents. I brought what I thought was the same amount the next week, and the guy said it was only 88 cents. I said, “Why?” He said, “Supply and demand. There’s not that much demand this week for paper, so you’re getting less.”
There are all these lessons that you learn about work ethic, independence, self-reliance, and having dignity in what you’re doing. Then, be generous with whatever you do—with your time, your money, your knowledge, and your experiences.
I happened to have really great parents who believed in me and made me believe in myself. Then you go beyond belief—you have a knowing about your life. And when you have a knowing about your life, you’re in a very special place.
Katie Frey
I love that. I love hearing about your parents because I know your dad was a union machinist and your grandfather was also a union guy. You’ve spoken about seeing firsthand how hard work supported your family. What did watching them work teach you about responsibility and work ethic?
Sam Pond
This is a tale told by many, right? Our parents work hard, and we watch them work and sacrifice for us. So, that isn’t unique to me. But in my household, that was what I saw: very caring, loving, hardworking people. Earn your money. Go and show up. Wrap your head around your work. Do it well.
My father and mother made me start cleaning the bathrooms at six years old. I learned to do the best job by wrapping your head around the work. Get into it. It’s an opportunity. It’s about being grateful. It’s about having perspective.
I think having perspective is so important in people’s lives. Have the perspective that you have your health, that you have the opportunity to do these things, and that you get to live a life in America—where we have a constitutional republic that allows us to live our lives to the fullest, with equal opportunity for all. The great equalizer is the rule of law, and we happen to be the profession that protects the rule of law. Because if we don’t have the rule of law, we might as well live in some third-world country, or Russia, or China. We have the rule of law that protects all, and as lawyers, we are the guardians of that.
Katie Frey
Very well said. My grandfather was a truck driver. Growing up, there were a lot of conversations in my family about hard work, hard labor, and what that does to your body physically as you provide for your family. Do you think growing up in a union household changed the way you define dignity and success?
Sam Pond
Oh, 100%. One of the things people ask me is what I ask during an interview to hire a lawyer. One of the things I ask is, “Tell me about what you talked about at the dinner table.”
Dignity is very, very important. You have to have dignity, and you get dignity from your work. I just met with some of the new law clerks with Chris Armstrong and Tom Giordano before I came here. I was talking to them about how we have to answer to one person first and foremost: ourselves.
At the end of the day, if you’re comfortable with yourself and what you did regarding your responsibilities and what you said you were going to do, you won’t need any medication to sleep. You’ll sleep just fine. I think that’s very, very important.
As a leader, there’s a whole level of duty. We can talk about leadership, but that’s very important. Whatever we signed up to do, you have to do it. And you only have to answer to yourself. If you can answer to yourself, you don’t have to worry about what anyone else thinks.
Katie Frey
I love that perspective on leadership because, as one of the founding partners of Pond Lehocky, you have not only attorneys but also staff members and their families who rely on you and your leadership to provide for their families. Do you ever feel that pressure, and how do you turn that pressure and your purpose into something that propels you forward?
Sam Pond
Really, really great question. Everything is mindset. When you sign up to have the duty and responsibility of leadership—and I use that metaphor because I always go back to Master and Commander, a great movie about leadership—you have blinders on. You don’t need to get clouded. You need to ask, “What is best for the flock that I decided to lead as a leader-servant? I’m here to serve them.”
By serving them to the best of my ability, I get energy from that, and I will be satisfied with myself. It’s very easy to stay focused on the people you lead and not worry about anything else.
Do I get overwhelmed by the responsibility of representing our clients? No. I get energy from it. I look at it as an opportunity that I have been blessed to lead. That is a blessing. It is an honor, and I get energy from it.
Sometimes, don’t get me wrong, it gets hard. There are crises all the time. If you’re sailing a ship, it is not always going to be sunny. You have a lot of storms. But that’s when you buckle down and say, “I’m going to get out in front at the helm, and we’re going to be fine. We’re going to learn from this storm.”
Then we can appreciate the calm waters when they come. But there will be more storms ahead, and we have to embrace them and deal with them as leaders. That’s what you have to do. You have to step up and show confidence. Don’t show fear. Fear is a beast. Ignorance and fear are two beasts, and fear comes from ignorance. There’s nothing to be afraid of.
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“Morning, honey. Who are you up against today, sweetheart?”
“Some nobody construction worker or something.”
“Go get him, tiger.”
“In other news, Pond Lehocky wins yet again.”
“You’ve got to be kidding me.”
“What does your client have to say to injured workers?”
“Just walk it off.”
Pond Lehocky. There’s one firm insurance companies don’t want to see. Pond Lehocky, trusted by workers to win.
Katie Frey
We’re back with Sam Pond, founding partner of Pond Lehocky. Going back to the work that we do, what brought me to Pond Lehocky, honestly, is the work that we do for the people we serve. That is my ethos as a human being. It’s what drives me every day.
You have seen some of the people we help and serve at some of the hardest moments in their lives: financial stress, uncertainty about how they will put food on the table, and uncertainty about whether they will be able to pay for their kids to go to school or participate in sports. After spending so much time around that, what have you learned about human nature?
Sam Pond
What I’ve learned about human nature is that people are resilient. When we come in as their guardian angels, as their advocates, we counsel them, answer their questions, and let them believe that they are going to be okay. We have a strategy.
You can leave this office and leave it on our lap. We’ll deal with it. Here’s the strategy. Here’s the legal diagnosis. Here’s the prognosis. This is where we’re going to get you. We’re going to be fine. I want you to sleep tonight because I’ve got it. You’ve given me the opportunity—the professional responsibility—to carry out the work of getting you where you’re going.
People are resilient. People are hardworking. People are good.
There is something called Article 11 under the Workers’ Compensation Act. It was enacted in 1996. It contains the fraud provisions. The insurance industry wanted the fraud provisions because they thought our clients committed fraud. Did you ever see that sign: “Report insurance fraud?”
Katie Frey
Yes.
Sam Pond
Well, you ought to be reporting insurance companies. We have never had an Article 11 action brought against any of our clients since 1996.
Katie Frey
Wow.
Sam Pond
We have never had a fraud action brought against us—tens of thousands of clients. Do you know how many I have filed? Thousands. Against insurance companies.
Katie Frey
My gosh.
Sam Pond
Thousands. So, people are resilient. But when they’re in times of need and they’re broken, lift them up. Put them back together. We can do that. It’s really wonderful. To be able to do something like that, to have that gift, that’s really fantastic.
Katie Frey
Is there a better feeling?
Sam Pond
No. No, there isn’t.
Katie Frey
Now, workers’ compensation, like you said, has a lot of misunderstanding around it. People think injured workers are filing fraudulent insurance claims, and that’s not the case. People still misunderstand workers’ compensation and injured workers in general. What’s something you wish more people understood?
Sam Pond
People have to understand that, in every state in America, they gave up a constitutional right to sue their employer in tort for negligence in exchange for workers’ compensation. That’s the short end of the stick—to give up a constitutional right to damages in a courtroom in exchange for workers’ compensation, which has no cost-of-living adjustment and where you have to fight tooth and nail to get medical care.
What Pond Lehocky does is not only represent you in court; Pond Lehocky also has a lot of resources. We work with many doctors. The best medical care you can possibly have may be available after coming to Pond Lehocky after a work injury because we can get you to see a doctor without an insurance card. They will advocate for you, work with us to get you better, and give us an opinion that you are, in fact, disabled because of a work injury.
I talked to the clerks today about a registered nurse making $175,000 who is now stuck with $70,000. She is a 45-year-old single mom with a bad back, uncertainty, and a mortgage. She is making half of what she made before, with no cost-of-living adjustment. I don’t know about you, but that would be a little stressful.
The laws are not what we would want them to be. If you think people are taking advantage, there is no financial motivation to be on workers’ comp. People don’t want to be injured. People want to work. They want to have their dignity. They don’t want uncertainty about whether they can get medical care, whether their check is going to come, or what will happen in five years with their lives.
We have to do a better job of getting out this message. We have to do a better job of public relations by telling our clients’ stories. This is a horrific ride for people. I hope the public understands that these folks need sympathy. They need compassion, and they need the right to go into a courtroom and have their day.
We fight for that all the time because it is always under challenge legislatively and politically. That is another thing Pond Lehocky has to do. We have to advocate politically. We have to be involved in that arena. We have to fight in that arena as well. We have to go from arena to arena to arena to continue fighting and make sure our folks have their day.
Katie Frey
One of the most interesting parts of your story to me is that, while you were still in law school, you helped win your father’s pension case. That’s a huge responsibility for someone so early in their career. What did that moment mean to you?
Sam Pond
My mother and father both passed away during my first year of law school. My mother passed away in October of the first semester. She had been suffering from cancer for about a year. My father was diagnosed with terminal cancer a month before her death. He did not tell anyone. Then, at Thanksgiving dinner, he told us that he was terminal. He died in March of the second semester of my first year.
It was interesting because my father always said, “Son, death is part of life. Otherwise, it wouldn’t really be interesting, would it?” He dealt with death in a wonderful way. It was fascinating to watch a man with total courage and an understanding that death is just part of life.
He was at Jefferson, and because my mother had passed, he said, “I can designate my pension to you and your sister, so have the president of the union come down to Jefferson.” He filled out the paperwork. I think he filled it out around March 18 or March 20, and he passed away four days later.
The Gas Commission, after 35 years of service—by the way, my father was the only union member who was ever put through four years of engineering school by the United Gas Improvement Company, which was the parent company of PGW, but he never left the union—denied the pension designation to my sister and me. They said he had to be alive on the first day of the following month for it to be effective, which did not sound particularly equitable to me.
I reached out to the union lawyers. We challenged it in the Court of Common Pleas, and we won. That is still good law today.
Katie Frey
Wow.
Sam Pond
Forty-four years later, I have been a pensioner of the union for 44 years, and I have that pension money. It is not much, but I put it into a scholarship at the Torresdale Boys Club, where I grew up. That’s what we do with that money, but it is still good law. Again, it goes back to challenging injustice. My father earned that pension.
Katie Frey
That’s incredible. To be able to see the work you did turned into all of that so immediately in your career is incredible.
In addition to being an all-state soccer player, you have boxed for decades. I think that surprises people because it is not exactly a hobby you hear most founding partners picking up. What originally drew you to boxing?
Sam Pond
Growing up in a Philadelphia neighborhood, almost everyone fought. It was just part of the culture in the neighborhood. I was probably 10 years old when my father made our little living room in Northeast Philly into a ring. My father was a bit of an amateur. My uncle—my mother’s brother—was a professional. My wife’s family was into boxing. Everybody was into boxing, so it was natural.
Then, when I was 17, in my junior year, I started fighting at Fishtown Boxing Association, where I was sparring with professionals—basically as raw meat for them to beat up. It was always part of what I wanted to do.
I watched boxing as a kid. ABC’s Wide World of Sports was the show. I was a really big fan of Cassius Clay, as he was called at that time. My father was a boxing fan, so I heard about all the great fighters—the middleweight fighters, Graziano, Zale, and the Philadelphia fighters. It was part of my everyday existence. As much as somebody would follow baseball or football, I followed boxing.
Muhammad Ali, Cassius Clay at the time, literally would fight every month or every six weeks. He would fight in Cleveland and then in New York. He was my idol, even though Joe Frazier was a Philly guy. My next-door neighbor, my best friend, was with Joe Frazier. In fact, I saw Frazier-Ali for the first time on the first closed-circuit broadcast at the Spectrum in 1971, when they fought at Madison Square Garden. It was a 15-rounder, and Frazier knocked him down in the 15th—not out, but down.
Katie Frey
Going back a little bit into law: You originally planned to become an engineer before going into law. What changed for you?
Sam Pond
I was always a history buff—not a history major, a history buff. I really wanted to see what a free-enterprise system with the rule of law was about. I thought, “Let me go to law school and see what happens.”
What I found when I went to law school was that, when I had a trial advocacy course, that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to be in court. I wanted to be a trial lawyer.
Katie Frey
That course changed things for you.
Sam Pond
Yeah.
Katie Frey
I know this is probably repetitive at this point, but was there any other specific moment when you realized the law could be a tool to help level the playing field for everyone?
Sam Pond
Oh, yes, of course. That goes back to our constitutional republic, the rule of law, and the ability to have a courtroom. What we have in America and in most Western democracies is that equalizer: the courtroom.
We have a lot of government safety tools—OSHA and whatever else—but they really don’t have a lot of teeth. The real equalizer is a courtroom because trial lawyers are the regulators and guarantors of safety in a free-enterprise system. It’s us. No one else. It’s only us.
When you have a Pinto, when you have the McDonald’s case and an old lady getting burned—companies knew they were burning their customers, but they said, “Well, it’s going to cost us more to change our coffee makers. We’ll just let our customers get burned.” You’re in business. You’re inviting people to come into your business to make a profit, and you’re burning them.
The only people who can really change that are trial lawyers because we can make them pay compensatory damages and, hopefully, punitive damages to penalize and deter their behavior. It’s us.
I realized early on that, to have the little guy fight the big guy, we needed that ring called a courtroom, with an independent judiciary or a jury of our peers to hear all the evidence, apply the law, and make a decision. That is why people have a shot. That is why what we do is so important.
In Philadelphia, we are seeing fewer people killed on construction sites because of Pond Lehocky and other trial lawyers. Safety is good for business because if you make things safe, you won’t have to see me. If you have to see me, you’re going to have to pay. So, make things safe. Make safety part of your culture. Protect your people. Protect your employees. Don’t let them get maimed, hurt, or killed. Trial lawyers are the ones who have done all that.
Katie Frey
David and Goliath: A lot of people watching this right now might not know what to do if they get injured at work. What’s the biggest mistake injured workers make immediately after an accident?
Sam Pond
Not giving notice that they were injured. But I will say the biggest mistake is not calling a lawyer. That may sound self-serving, but you have to realize the other great equalizer we have is a contingent-fee agreement.
That is a great equalizer because you can hire Jerry Lehocky, who has tried more cases to decision than any other lawyer in America, at 20% only if he wins. If you were to hire Jerry Lehocky in any other context without a contingent fee, you would have to pay him $2,000 an hour. You don’t have $2,000 an hour to pay him. Only if he wins and gets a result does he get paid. He gets paid the same amount as the guy down the street who isn’t Jerry Lehocky. So, go see Jerry Lehocky.
Let’s analogize this to a medical problem. If you had a medical problem and thought, “Hey, I don’t know, something’s wrong. I should see a doctor,” you would have to pay the doctor for the visit. You would get a diagnosis. If you had a diagnosis that needed treatment, you would get a course of treatment that you would have to pay for. Then, hopefully, you would have a prognosis that you would come out better.
Let’s analogize that medical situation to the legal situation after a work injury. If you have a work injury and you ask, “What are my rights? What are my benefits? Do I have benefits? Is Social Security there? What about my pension? Can I get unemployment? Do I have a personal injury case?” seeing Jerry Lehocky does not cost you anything, unlike the doctor visit. You can sit down with him and get a legal diagnosis for free.
You may not have a case, but at least you will know whether or not you have a case. You won’t be wandering around asking, “What are my rights? Can I get any benefits?” Jerry will tell you what your rights are, what the course of action is, and what the prognosis is. As we talked about earlier: What is the strategy for my life in light of this legal issue?
The biggest mistake, in my opinion, is not seeing a contingency-fee lawyer with great experience and expertise who can give you a legal diagnosis. It is free. Get it, get some peace of mind, and get some legal direction.
Katie Frey
When you look ahead 10 or 20 years, what concerns you most?
Sam Pond
You’re talking to me about 10 or 20 years at my age. I’ll take it. Kidding.
Katie Frey
When you look ahead at the next 10 or 20 years, what concerns you most about the future of workers’ and labor protections?
Sam Pond
We’re always going to be under pressure because industry wants to run roughshod over its employees, and that is a cost of doing business. I see that as a threat.
Am I particularly worried about it at this point in Pennsylvania or in the country? Not so much. But we will always have to be vigilant. I think the bigger challenge is to get folks what they really deserve.
Katie Frey
We talked a lot about your competitive nature—getting in the ring, winning, fighting. But outside of work, what makes Sam Pond genuinely happy?
Sam Pond
My family, for sure. Now I have two grandchildren, so that is very special. That makes me very happy.
We raced cars last week. I still like to compete, doing those types of things and staying in the moment. I still ski and play a lot of tennis. Physical activities, too. But my family, first and foremost, is what really rings my bell and gives me great joy.
Katie Frey
Sam, the last question I have for you today: The name of this podcast is Law Meets Life. When you hear that phrase, what does it mean to you?
Sam Pond
When you’re into the law, it really is your life. Again, I talked about the jealous mistress earlier. If you’re really going to be a professional, just like if you were a physician, this becomes your life. It is a profession.
You’ve really got to immerse your entire mind, body, and spirit into it to represent and counsel your clients. So, the law is my life. I think Jerry would say the law is his life, and Tom would say the law is his life as well. Obviously, our families are first and foremost, but the law is in the fabric of our existence and our lives. It’s there all the time.
Katie Frey
Sam, thank you so much for being our first guest on Law Meets Life.
Sam Pond
Thanks for having me.
Katie Frey
Absolutely. And thank you all for listening to Law Meets Life: From legal strategy to lived experience. Until next time.
